Join Liz, Shirley and Jen for a podcast on maths and resilience learning on 'The Skills Pod'. Grab your cup of tea and biscuit, sit back and relax whilst Liz, Shirley and Jen give you tips and hints to take you through their experiences of maths and resilience learning and different tools that may assist you.
Running order of the maths and resilience learning podcast.
· Fixed mindset vs. growth mindset
· Exercising the brain
· Learning maths and learning in general
· Expectations
· Comfort zone
· The growth zones
· Anxiety zone
· How you handle and react to difficulties
· Motivation
· Here to help
Join Liz, Shirley and Jen for a podcast on maths and resilience learning on 'The Skills Pod'. Grab your cup of tea and biscuit, sit back and relax whilst Liz, Shirley and Jen give you tips and hints to take you through their experiences of maths and resilience learning and different tools that may assist you.
Running order of the maths and resilience learning podcast.
· Fixed mindset vs. growth mindset
· Exercising the brain
· Learning maths and learning in general
· Expectations
· Comfort zone
· The growth zones
· Anxiety zone
· How you handle and react to difficulties
· Motivation
· Here to help
Hello, and welcome to the skills pod a series of podcasts to support your skills development, brought to you by the study skills advisory team.
Liz :This is the Skills Pod, and it's Liz Johnson, and Jennifer Harper, and Shirley John, hi. And we're going to be talking about fixed mindset.
Jennifer :So what is a fixed mindset? There's many different perspectives on what a fixed mindset is, in comparison to a growth mindset. And from a literacy point of view
Liz :it's being fluid in what you think you can do, and not seeing intelligence or intellect as something that doesn't change over time. Is that the same sort of understanding as the maths point of view? Shirley?
Shirley :Well, I think as Math Skills advisor, I come across fixed mindsets quite a lot. A lot of people seem to give up on maths from quite an early age, believing that they actually can't learn it. But that's fixed mindset. So growth mindset is saying, actually, I can learn this, but maybe it's going to take a bit of effort.
Liz :That fixed mindset is something that can happen from quite an early age, sort of, you know, if your told this is difficult, or you feel you can't do it, or you aren't sure where to go next, it can become a physical block in your learning in the way you approach things. We've been looking at some research by Carol Dweck, and she talks about the difference between fixed mindset and growth mindset and how it, it starts really quite early on in people's lives and development.
Jennifer :I was just going to say, I was just thinking then and reflecting and I was thinking about the fixed mindset. I think for anyone as an individual, you also have to think about what your fixed mindset is, and maybe what has influenced that. Because in my younger experience, if someone told me that I couldn't do something, or I was constantly reminded, which might happen from different external factors, sometimes you begin to believe that which can then affect how you perceive things. So it's important as well to reflect upon where you're at in your learning process. And if your the person that's blocking your mindset, or is it that external factors, and how you can then approach that and develop it into a growth mindset by being aware of what's going on as well. And at the end of the day, it's your learning experience and your growth. So you need to kind of take ownership of that, to develop it further.
Shirley :Yeah, and I think, at one stage, the perception was actually that you couldn't increase your intellect that your brain cells was sort of fixed with whatever you are given through your genetics at birth but erm. Actually, recent studies have shown haven't they that, that that's not the case. And the one that sticks in my head is the research with London taxi drivers learning the knowledge. And actually it was shown through all this wizzy tech sort of scanning their brains that actually, while they were learning all the different routes and learned and they actually grew lots of new connections in their brain. So it sort of exploded, that idea that your intellect was fixed and actually showed that if you put effort into learning lots of new things, you would actually create more brain connections, and therefore you'd be capable of learning even more new things
Jennifer :I'd say to try and map it against things that you enjoy as well, if that's possible, because if you enjoy something, you're more likely to do it. Therefore, you're more likely to experiment and develop with that growth mindset approach. And I think a lot about learning different instruments, for me I'm quite musical or I was when I was a lot younger. And I found that it was quite challenging because I'm dyslexic. So I have that structural flow problem where things jump around, and I'm trying to connect all the pieces to actually play a piece of music from a piece of scripted music, however, because I was so passionate about it, and I structured that with things that I like, I was able to develop my growth mindset within musical instruments. Because I became more passionate I learned things erm through memory, but then by doing it that way, I then began to learn how to read scripts more productively as well and follow strategies to do that. So you can apply it to lots of different things. The growth mindset approach.
Liz :I came to growth mindset really quite late on I was probably in my mid 40s. I had always, as you were saying earlier, Shirley that mindset was, you know, you've got what you were born with. And that's just the way it is and that there were things I could do and things I couldn't do. And I could always read lots and lots of trashy novels, and go through loads and loads of books. But I struggled so much to read academic work and it took until I was about 42, 43, to find out that I've got earlens. So when I looked at something that was printed on cheap paper, like trashy novels were, there wasn't as much of a contrast as when I was looking at textbooks and academic articles that were printed on white paper and had black text. And sometimes the text had got set with serif text, it had got bits on the ends of eyes and T's and things and it moved around, when I looked at it, it didn't stay in one place. And to suddenly realised I could wear a pair of glasses that had a tint to them. And some of the things that I'd thought were beyond me, suddenly I was able to get a handle on and be able to get an understanding of it really helped me to feel as though it wasn't fixed, there were so many things that I could do with my learning that I hadn't maybe realised before. I haven't been in a position to do anything about. And it's something very simple that if no one tells you, you don't know that you don't know.
Jennifer :I think we've just proven an actually really important point at this stage, that we are all very different. Even three people in this conversation, we've had different learning exposure, different learning experiences. So when you're thinking about your growth mindset, it really needs to be a process where you're identifying who you are as a learner, and applying that in your own way. So we're developing your own growth mindset with the skills and abilities that you have, and the strategies that you need to maybe put in place to do that. So and I think that was a helpful process when you then move on, and you're trying to exercise the brain and learn these development skills.
Shirley :I think that expectations are really important as well, aren't they? Because one of the other things I would say about learning math skills is people say it's, it's too hard. And perhaps it is a challenging subject. But also I think, maybe sometimes we want things to be quite easy when we're learning. And or we think that we're not doing well, if we find it quite difficult at first. So I think having that expectation that it might be quite hard and that you might have to work at it helps you have that growth mindset as well, that you realise that, yes, you can grow. But actually, it might take a bit of effort, it's not necessarily going to be as easy as perhaps you thought it was at the beginning.
Jennifer :I think a lot of it when I think about expectations I think about it as problem solving. And whether that's a dyslexic thing I don't know. So I think about similar to maths, so the English point, for me, the reading aspects, the structure aspects, writing, getting my ideas out of my head and onto paper, especially when I was younger, was a an extremely large challenge for me. And, as I've grown older, I've found classes to put in place to alleviate that and enable me to get the information I need across to communicate well, in my way with other people. But when we talk about expectations, I expect it to be like everyone else. And whether that's a schooling thing, I don't know. But think about where you stand and how you're going to solve these problems in order to have that growth mindset approach and how can you break down those barriers? And for me, when I talk about problem solving, that's a process of elimination, what works, what doesn't work? How can I grow in this way, if it doesn't work that way, I'm going to try this different approach. So again, with the expectations, don't just try once, and then go Well that didn't work and give up. It might be a scenario where as Shirley said is going to develop over time, and you need to continually pushing against that barrier. And trying those different approaches to see how you can move forward into that growth mindset.
Liz :That's a really important point. I've actually got a mug of tea here with me. And it says on the mug, even the longest journey begins with a single step. And I think that's really important because I tended to in my past, just do something once and then that was it, which is why as I've said before in previous podcasts that I quite like exams because you have a time limit, you had to do it. The things with coursework, you were expected to go back and work on it. And if you like me struggle to think about things or to realise you've made a mistake or want to improve things coming out of your comfort zone into that growth zone and saying, right, what else can I learn from this, what else can I put in? Where else can I go to challenge myself, if you have the wrong frame of mind for it, you can feel as though you failed at first. And it's not going to help you to keep going, which is what you need to do. Because everything shouldn't be easy. If you could already do everything, you wouldn't need to go to university to learn things, you wouldn't learn new skills, it's that that idea of kids that learn to walk, they do it time and time and time and time again. So that they get build confidence, they practice, they build in the skills and they build in the muscle memory, if you just do something once and fail at it, it doesn't mean you failed forever, it just means look back at what you've done, work out where things went wrong, or work out what was outside your comfort zone, if it threw you into a bit of a panic stage. And if you can pull back and have a look at something so that you go into those growth zone areas where you're actually learning lots of information and able to put it into practice in a meaningful way for you.
Shirley :Yeah, I think these are really good ideas to think about when you're thinking about your own study, aren't they that remembering that if it's really easy, then are you actually learning and, and actually, it will take a bit of struggle and effort and perseverance to to actually start to kind of really understand something. And I think one of the things that really helped me was one of my tutors at university. And I wasn't sure whether to take it as a compliment at first. But she said to me, Well, you don't always get it the first time, do you? And I thought, No, I don't maybe I'm a bit dumb like that. But she said that actually, what you do is you go away, and you won't let it drop, you just keep plugging away to try and to understand it. And she said to me, I think you end up with a deeper understanding and some of these people who think they've got it the first time through, because you've actually worked at it. And that's really struck me and something that stuck with me, I think over the years is that that actually, you know, getting a good depth of understanding does require that effort and the perseverance, you're not going to understand something the first time you meet it. And actually, you do need to stay in that place where you're willing to keep persevering. And that's where you really grow because you suddenly suddenly things start to drop into place. Do you think actually this is starting to make a bit of sense. But I think you mentioned Liz didn't you that sort of anxiety. And I think I think we also need to recognise that sometimes it can become overwhelming and it might tip is into that fight or flight panic mode. And I think the research says that, you know, once you get into that fight or flight sort of instinctive response, you're just not capable of learning. Nevermind, however hard you try, your thinking brain has disconnected. So you do need to recognise when you perhaps you need to take a step back, just get get calm again, before you can start learning or maybe get a bit of help from someone. And I think as Study and Maths Skills advisors, we'd always want to say that we're here to help wouldn't wait to, to help. If you feel you've gone in that panic zone, to get you back into the growth zone. I mean, it doesn't really matter what it takes does it as long as you recognise, actually, this is making me too anxious, I just need to step away. And then I can come back to it again to later, try a different tack maybe, and start to grow and to be able to learn.
Jennifer :When I think about the different zones and going through the process of comfort and growth and anxiety. I think another beneficial thing to be aware of is your perceptions. And viewing things in a positive way, like Shirley said. And if you think this is going to be beneficial for me, you know, if you go towards it with that negative mindset and that negative approach, everything's going to be more challenging, it's going to be a bit more of a downer. So if you're looking at it as a positive growth aspect, so this is going to help you develop in the future, you're going to gain further knowledge, more experience. And then when we move into the anxiety zone, for me, especially I think a lot about how organisation can really help that, says the person that is anti organisation, but it does, it really helps because sometimes we all take on a bit too much. And then we're actually capable of at that time because we think that we're able to deal with it. And it pushes us into that anxiety zone where we become overwhelmed. So by having those structures of organisation and planning your time within that, that gives you enough time. And you can actually reflect and think well, this is what I need to do. So that might alleviate some of that overstretch into that anxiety zone. But, again, as Shirley and Liz have said, when you get to that point where you've hit that anxiety zone, you become counterproductive and you just don't really achieve what you need to achieve at that point and I do it now with my research, I'll get to a point where if I've sat for too long, and I've been really productive for the first hour, maybe the second hour, and then I hit a block wall. I'm like, Okay, I'll sit here for half an hour. And once I've got to that point, I've gone into that half an hour gone, I've done something that is, should have taken me a minute to do and my brain slowed down, I've gone too far. And then I become anxious. And that's that point, as an individual that you need to recognise, I need to step away from this now, because I'm not doing, I'm not being productive. But that's why I say that that organisation and time management becomes helpful, because you've given yourself enough time in your structure to be able to do that, to be able to go, Well, I'm not going to get the quality out of this, it's just a bit of a waste of time at this stage. So that's something to be mindful of, as well. And then, again, as we move into kind of how you're going to handle and react to difficulties, there's lots of different strategies and methods that you can put in place, as well as time management and structure.
Shirley :Yeah, and I was thinking that, I think one of the things some students do, like you've sort of explained that not just taking the time, isn't it, they just work harder, throw more effort at it. And sometimes as well as stepping away, maybe you need to think well, actually doing the same thing again, and again, is not actually going to get me anywhere. And I think this idea is something I've come across quite recent, actually something that Liz, pasted a linked to, which is this idea of strategic mindset, which means actually being willing to try something different. So not just stepping away, but when you come back, perhaps trying something different, trying to go about it in a different way. And I think that something that you do naturally in mathematical problem solving is that, you know, you try different approaches, if the first approach, you think, Oh, well, maybe I'll use that method. If that doesn't work, then you have to kind of step back and go, Well, that didn't work. So now I need to think what other methods could I use. And I think it applies to your learning to that actually, if you've tried one way of studying, or whether it's where you study or sort of how you break down your study, if that's not really working, you need to sit back and go, actually, there may be a different way that's really going to work for me. And I just like the example of Thomas Edison, Thomas Edison didn't keep making the same light bulb again, and again, until it worked, he had to step back and go, well, that light bulb didn't work, I'm going to try something different. And I don't know how many iterations of light bulbs he went through before he found the one that worked. But eventually he did find the one that worked, because he was willing to take that sort of strategic step and say, Actually, I need to do something different, whatever that may be. And I do think that's something to think about in your learning is, actually, if you're getting bogged down, if it's not working well, you know, look for other ideas, how could you approach it differently, find something that will just start you're moving forward, again,
Jennifer :Something that you might not be aware of, as well as in psychology. And when we look at neuroscience, we're actually physically programmed in a certain way, if you're interested in neuroscience, psychology aspects. So if you don't have that downtime, your brain doesn't have that opportunity to reflect become creative and innovative. So it is really important that you have that downtime to do to be able to do that. So that's another biologically driven aspect of our human behaviour as well. So that's something that you could think about.
Liz :And some of the creative types, like actors call it breaking your state, you can be so fixed in one mindset that you can't look at a problem in a different way, you can't think outside the box that you've constructed around the issue. So if you break your state, something that we do in quite a few of the media sessions, where we'll get the students to come up with a series of ideas of what a TV programme could be, and then they'll get stuck and say, I can't think of anything else. So we make them physically stand up, turn round in a full circle, and then recite their telephone number backwards. And it forces them to think in such a completely different way that it frees them up from all the things that were in their brain before and then they can refocus on the the question or the problem or the issue in a different way. So you know, maybe you can try something similar to that maybe you can physically do it. You know, if you have been sitting at your desk and you've got to that point where you just saturated you don't think anything else is coming out. How can you break your state? How can you do something that might seem a little silly or that might seem absurd, but that completely takes you out of where you are mentally and ables you to just come at the problem from a completely different angle to the one you've been looking at it at its that sort of spatial awareness of where you are and how to take the box and rebuild it, make it into a circle, make it into a rhombus, whatever it might be, but use the same pieces in a different construction in order to come out with a different outcome, and reframe whatever your problem is.
Jennifer :So when we talk about resilience, and the learning process and the long haul, so for me, definitely, as I've got older, it's been something that I've probably through a trial and error approach, I've got better at. So look at those kind of like short term, mid term goals, I would say, when you're planning your development in that growth mindset aspect. So I was looking at kind of like where I am now, where maybe I want to be in a couple of months. What do I want to learn? How do I want to expand my knowledge? And then you know, what's, what's the long term goal that might be in a year's time, it might be my career aspirations, and start putting things in place and learning them. And definitely, probably in my mid 20s, I reached a point and I was like, okay, I'm not too sure if I'm achieving what I want to achieve. So instead of like is the old New Year's resolution, but in a bit of a different way. It was like, What are the three main things I used to give myself three challenges a year, more than the kind of like three new year's resolutions, and I'd go, I want to try and achieve these three things this year. And those small term goals, or the little steps and stages that I put in place throughout the year to try and achieve that overall goal. And I never put pressure on myself, because if I didn't achieve the three things I'd put in place, at the beginning of the year, I didn't give myself a hard time about it, because I know I would have achieved maybe two of them, or elements of them, which is more than what I would have done if I hadn't put anything in place initially at all. So it's, I suppose it's kind of like focusing your mind to develop yourself in a certain way. So I found that worked really well for me. And it motivated me as time went by, because I felt like I was moving towards my long term goal. It was helping me to get where I want it to be.
Liz :Something that Shirley mentioned earlier was perseverance. And I would say there, there are three different words that are quite similar. We've got perseverance, we've got grit, and we've got resilience. And all three of them could be three goals that people have, they're all three slightly different ways of expressing that same long term to mid term goal. And they're all three words that really impress upon people how difficult it can be, for people to stick with things. I mean, you talked about New Year's resolutions, Jennifer, and you know, there's a reason that the third week of January, is the time when most people apparently break their new year's resolutions, because people find it very difficult to persevere, and stick at things. So you know, finding a reason to stick at something, it's because it's a course that you're interested in, it's a course you're studying, you want to know more, you've got a lot of things in front of you and questions that you want answered, they can frame your learning and give you that resilience and perseverance to be able to solve problems. And the great to think I want to know the next stage, I want to evolve, I want to be a different person and grow in my knowledge.
Shirley :And I think it's important to remember, isn't it that actually just getting a degree over three or four years is actually a long term goal, isn't it? It's it doesn't happen overnight. And and actually, if you're going to have the motivation and the grit to see that all the way through. And you do need to think, Well, actually, I'm not going to be graduate level at the beginning, I am going to have to take those first steps of learning how to write in an academic way learning how to navigate University, and actually, potentially taking that sort of yearly goal and setting it even to a monthly goal or a weekly goal can really help you to keep that motivation to go. Actually, I know I'm not going to be a university graduate in two weeks, but actually maybe in two weeks time, I can understand this and this or in two weeks time, I will have worked out how to get started on my first assignment, or whatever it is that you might, whatever level you're at, and actually setting in place those those little goals, but also keeping in mind that you have got that ultimate goal of why you went to university and why you studied the course you're studying. You know, what is it you want to do that afterwards. So I think having that, that sort of long term motivation, but maybe seeing actually, if you can set yourself some short term motivation to, to give yourself a bit of grit along the way to keep at it. And actually, I think all the evidence suggests that students who have that grit and resilience, and are the ones that are more successful in the end, having resilience, having growth mindset, are actually predictors of success far more than intellectual capabilities at the start of the course.
Jennifer :I think resilience is something that takes time to build as well just sat here thinking about my undergraduate experience, and a lot of people don't talk about the emotional side, and the realistic of thing that happens, I spend four years crying, happy, blood, sweat, and tears. Gonna give up, its too hard. I'm okay, now, the emotional roller coaster that comes with trying to learn and push yourself to learn something new. It's just there. And that's completely fine. And I think sometimes we look at others and go, they find it fine. And, you know, such and such in my class just wrote the notes down and they're doing really well, you shouldn't frame how you're doing on it, someone else's development. And just be aware that it is going to be challenging, you'll have good days, you'll have bad days. And I was thinking just then what you're saying Shirley, and for me, I do have those short term, mid term, long term goals in place. But again, as I've got older, I found that even with the biggest things, I get really overwhelmed by looking at the bigger picture. So for me, it actually really helps to have those small chunks and those small little goals to aim towards. And then I become calmer as they develop and build because I can see the bigger picture coming together. So if you are that way inclined, it might be a case of approaching it in that manner. And just thinking about the little tick things that you can take off your lists to get you through. And it's just knowing that we're all different. And we're all going to have different journeys with the whole learning experience. And building that resilience, as they say, what is it get back up? If you fall off the horse get back up again. And it is it's, you know, as Shirley says the people that are going to do well, are those people that go? Well, that was rubbish. And that didn't work out. But how can I get back back up and challenge that, again, how can I look at it in a different way or approach in a different direction.
Liz :I think we all have self doubt at some time. And we all think we can't do something. And it is just that, that if you can shake yourself off, get back on the horse, try again, then you're going to build it up incrementally. And if you've got that determination to keep trying and keep trying, then it can help you feel as though you belong, it can help you feel as though you're moving forward in your learning, you know, you might start and there's a thing called imposter syndrome that a lot of students say they feel and a lot of people in life say they feel you know, people that are CEOs or managers of businesses feel as though they shouldn't be or they haven't got a right to be there. And it's all part and parcel of being human. And if you accept that and can work on it, then you will find that you can make connections with the people on your course the people that are studying at the same time as you, you can find different ways and things you've got in connection with them. And it can help you to build on what skills you've got, what confidence you've got. And to give you a place that you feel you belong and you fit in.
Shirley :Yeah, I think community is really important, isn't it as part of the journey, because I think it's really difficult to be resilient on your own. You can do so much. But actually, if you're studying something new with others, and it's you can kind of pick each other up off the floor. But actually, you know, that can be hard at first. And something that I experienced in my first term at university was this kind of sort of imposter syndrome, where I think we all kind of looked around and thought that everybody else was doing well. And everybody else deserved to be there. But I had just got lucky, if you like it's quite easy to feel, isn't it that you know, you got your place because you were lucky and everybody else got their place because they're brilliant. But actually what happened towards the end of my first term is suddenly we started to kind of realise that we were all in the same boat. And we started to talk about what we were learning and we started to realise actually, everybody's just the same as I am. They're all finding it difficult. They're all finding they've got their own struggles. And I think that if you can get over that barrier of thinking, well, maybe everybody looks as though they've got it sorted. But perhaps they are going to be feeling the same roller coaster, they may be in a different place and the roller coaster to where you are. But actually, you know, it does help if you can find that community with others who are learning the same thing. You can share tips with each other, and and actually feel that you're not alone in that. So I think it's really important to look for ways you can connect with other people who are learning the same thing. It's not always easy, particularly when we're online a lot of the time, but that can be part of as Jennifer talks about the emotional aspect of it. If you can connect with other people that can really help that aspect. keep you on track as well.
Jennifer :And as a parting word I would probably say from the three of us, is just remember that you're not alone. There's lots of different people across the university that can help you and assist you. And here it at Study Skills, you can come and see us and we can chat about it, whether that be in the literacy team or the maths team, or both.
Liz :Feel free to contact us look at the portal pages, contact us at LTIskills@chester.ac.uk and we will always be here to help wherever we can. Thank you for listening. Bye bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai