Learning To Learn At University

Join the Academic Skills Team for The Skills Pod. In this episode, Academic Skills Advisers, Lisa, Sharon, and Emma, are joined by Katie Mansfield-Loynes, Senior Lecturer in Nursing and Healthcare Education, to discuss learning to learn. They discuss Katie and Lisa’s research into embedding academic skills sessions within a programme and the feedback they’ve received from students as well as sharing strategies for learning throughout your studies at university.  

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Emma 0:04

Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the Skills Pod. I'm Emma and I am one of the academic skills advisors at the University of Chester. And today we're going to talk about learning to learn. And to do that, I'm joined by two of my colleagues.

Lisa 0:19

Hi, I'm Lisa.

Sharon 0:19

And I'm Sharon, and I'm another academic skills advisor.

Emma 0:26

And we also have a special guest.

Katie 0:29

Oh, hi. Hi everybody, my name is Katie. I'm the course leader for the Student Nursing Associate Program. I've been at the university for 10 years next week, and for the previous nine years, I have worked exclusively with the Student Nursing Associate Program, which is a foundation degree and

Why Experienced Healthcare Workers Fear Uni

Katie 0:51

also a higher apprenticeship.

Emma 0:53

So learning to learn.

Lisa 0:55

Yeah.

Katie 0:55

What do you want to do? What we've done with the program for the last nine years is that when students first came in, so the students that come into the program are very well experienced healthcare assistants from acute settings, from nursing homes, from GP practices, from hospices, etc., and they are really skilled at the job of caring, but they haven't got a formal qualification. So the nursing associate program was bought in as a bridging of the gap qualification, and it is now registered with the NMC. But what we found was that although the students were really good at doing the skill side of it, there was a real fear around work coming to university. And with the students that we've had so far today, and we've had about 350, 400 students through, 95% of them are the first person in their family to go to university. So there's been no learnt behaviours from people from family members. And one of the biggest concerns that they got was writing assignments. So uh back in

Building Study Skills Into Modules

Katie 2:09

2017, we already worked with um study skills, as you were then, and we had some ad hoc sessions that came in. In the second year, we made that much more formalised. And for the past sort of seven or eight years, what we've had is a um a module in year one and a module in year two that looked at lifelong learning, looked at um learning to learn, professional behaviours. So it gave that groundwork for year one and then into year two for level five. And what we've had is some very structured, pre-agreed um ask sessions that go into that, anything from note-taking to referencing to critical writing to paragraph structure. Um, and so as I'm about to leave the role of programme leader, what uh Lisa Reese and I decided to do is to do some research around what what benefit have those study skills been as part of an embedded part of the programme.

Lisa 3:10

Yeah, I mean, I think it's one of those that whilst obviously what we've looked at really focuses on that one cohort, I think some of those challenges and some of those worries and anxieties about stepping up to university, coming into academic study are a concern for a lot of students that particularly, no, not particularly, but those with less traditional courses of entry into university. So the idea of looking at this embedded programme as part of their course, I suppose, is to really see if that's something that would been that that is beneficial to students that they do find useful to develop those skills and hopefully off the back of it it might give a little bit of traction to whether we can do that in other in other, you know, in other departments and other courses. But I think the thing that when we've spoken to students about it, they have found those sessions really valuable. It it really has allowed them to demonstrate all the great things they can do in an academic way, which I think, like I say, is a struggle for a lot of students. So I think it has worked. Um there are as with anything, there's always changes you can make, and that's why you know we've we've spent time speaking to the students about what they would prefer and what they would like to see done differently. Um, but ultimately the take-home message from what we've seen really is it works and it has been helpful. Yeah, so that's I suppose that's the

Academic Language And SEND Support

Lisa 4:34

the research in a nutshell, really. But the idea of learning to learn and developing those skills, I don't think is unique to to our to this cohort.

Sharon 4:42

Um, I think it's really important to somebody I can't remember who it was, described academic language as being a completely different language. You're learning something new from the start, aren't you? It's like learning French. It takes a while to get into it, it takes practice, it takes reminders, it takes good teaching, and it's not something that you're born able to do. It is a skill you have to learn, and not just writing either, academic reading and all the other skills that you you have to become proficient in at university. You don't know how to do them, you're not born knowing how to do it, and that's absolutely fine.

Katie 5:21

What we also have within the program is a is a fairly high proportion of students that come with with send. Um, so they a lot of people have dyslexia um that has never been diagnosed because they they didn't succeed at school and they tend to be older. It was very much my some people of my era where it was, oh well, you're just not very good at this, whereas there was no diagnosis. So we have a large proportion of our numbers that come through the program and self-identify or as as pats, we help them to identify that there might be a send issue going on for them. So we have a high proportion of that uh compared to other courses, but there is almost this, we're not going to talk about it still, and people are embarrassed if they've got if they feel that they they're too thick to do it. And it's never nobody is too thick for it. Everybody has got an equal chance of succession. Where you mark yourself as succeeding is a pass. It does not if you've got a distinction, it's if you've got a pass. That is that's the baseline of getting through the a programme of academic study. And when you've got a specific send issue like dyslexia or ADHD, part of that can be the organization of self. And if that organization of self is about right, I need to contact academic skills to make an appointment because it's not embedded in the programme, it it tends not to happen because that that ability to organise that, to see it, to follow it through is can be quite difficult for students with a sense. So it's about by bringing it into the session, completely embedding it, doing co-structured teaching between the the academic lead and also the Ask representative. It works so well and it's then not seen as something extra. It's not a bolt-on, and it makes it much more normal. What we found from our research is that is that students are much more likely to share with each other for peer support that they have dyslexia, anxiety, ADHD, which allows peer support as well as academic support, as well as ass support as well, which can only benefit from and the student but really involves themselves in that wraparound care around themselves at that time. So it's it's I think it's very important that study skills, academic skills, learning to learn is is embedded within the programme, and that's that's a responsibility of academics because we don't want to set anybody up to fail. We talk about that a lot within within university programs. You know, we we have set criteria to get in because we don't want people to fail. But as soon as they come through our doors, we are going to have students that don't know how to do certain things, and the only way that we can help them is to support them and to teach them how to do it. So that learning to learn, I think is integral. And it's not just a year one thing, it's every year they go to a different level, they go to five and to six and seven. That's what's important. It's taking them on a journey to say, right, that's brilliant, we've got that, but now we're going to work on that. So in our second year, we have enhancing thinking skills, enhancing academic writing, that sort of thing. And and what works really well is the fact that if the academic is bought into it, because obviously Lisa and Sharon, who I work with the most, they are not nurses by background. So it's really helpful to have that right, this is what it looks like, and then the academic can say, This is what it, this is how you're going to use it within your

First Assignments And Using Feedback

Katie 9:11

assignment. So this is what the Nursing and Midway Fruit Council would look like. This is how you would bring in grey literature into it. So it's very much a partnership working.

Emma 9:20

And it's also about breaking down barriers, isn't it? So if you have academic skills embedded into your module, then the students that are meeting academic skills advisors seeing that we're friendly, that we're approachable. We're also signposting them to kind of those additional services like our email service, our um one-to-ones, and it's a great way to kind of get that engagement. Um, it's like the podcast I've had recently. I've had several students say to me, I've come to see you because I heard you on the podcast. One student told me that I've kept a company on the way to work. She listens to me on the way to work. Um and that's really lovely because it's again it's breaking down that barrier, it's that human connection, isn't it? Like who's a human being who's approachable and friendly and wants to help you help as you were saying, Katie, it's all about you know, we want people to succeed, we want them to kind of do well. Um, and I think the other thing as well with with learning to learn is I've seen several students this week who've got their first assignments and they're so stressed out about it that it's actually blocking them from getting started.

Katie 10:22

Yeah.

Emma 10:23

And it's that thing of yes, it's your first assignment, yes, it's terrifying. I mean, as Sharon said, it's it's it's like learning a different language, except that you don't get the joy of using it on holiday. Um, and it is tough and it's it's an awkward kind of language, and it takes that practice and it it develops every year. But also, your first assignment is a way for you to kind of get a sense of the playing field, it's a way for you to see what those goalposts are, and everyone wants to do well, obviously, and we want everybody to pass, but that feedback that you get, use it to develop. Don't just focus on the mark, focus on the feedback as well. What kind of in that feedback your tutor will tell you what you've done well, but also tell you what you need to develop, and that's where that learning to learn comes in. You'll get some feedback, how can you enact that? What can what you need to do to kind of improve for next time?

Lisa 11:14

I think that's really great advice for for any students that are listening to to it this episode, which I know Katie, she's driving the numbers up, she's she's advertised this as a big thing to all the students, but um it's I think the key message I would say to students, and certainly off the back of what with working with the SNAs for a number of years, is that it is okay, like like Sharon said, like you said, it's okay that you're coming into this not knowing everything. There's that you don't know what you don't know until someone says, Oh, this is how you do it. And actually, I think that for me is one of the biggest messages I'd say to any student when I meet them in a one-to-one or in a session, it is okay to not know this because you don't do it until you have to do it. No one tells you that this is how you do referencing in this particular style until you have to do it, and until you make a make a you know a mistake or not get that citation quite right, and someone gives you feedback on it, you don't know, and that is okay. That is all part of being in academia, being at university. It's it's not just about the content and learning your discipline, it's about the skills you need to to learn that discipline. Um, and as Sharon said before, it's it's not just the writing, it's the reading, it's the organizing, it's the note making, it's you know the using of feedback, the sort of skills around the actual assignment itself are equally as important as how do I write in an academic style, roughly how many words should my paragraphs be. So again, for for students that are listening and thinking, oh yeah, but the assignment is what I'm handing in and that's what I'm worried about. We totally get that, but actually the skills that aren't seen in a way in your assignment are sort they they sort of are seen in an implicit way. If you do, you know, good reading and good note making, it does show in your writing, even though you don't write explicitly. I read 30 journal articles for this assignment. You don't say that, but it comes through in how you write your

Planning And Process Over Product

Lisa 13:18

the time you spent planning, the time you spent editing and proofreading, it it all shows in that final piece. So those I don't I don't want to say they're soft skills because they're not soft skills, but the the less obvious skills are equally as important as

Sharon 13:33

you mentioned planning there, Lisa, and I think that is so important. We talk to a lot of students in our job, uh and I know you do, Katie, obviously, as part of your job, but we talk to quite a few who say, Oh no, we don't plan, I just like to get started. And it may well be they've never thought they had to plan, they don't know how to plan. So part of um part of coming to university, learning new skills, not being afraid to try new ways of doing things, just because you've not planned in the past and you've done all right, well, maybe you could do better if you if you plan a bit, especially with sort of long, more complex assessments, then taking that time and thinking actually, this is a skill that could be quite useful to me, not just now, but in future, professionally, um, and taking a bit of a step back and thinking, okay, it seems really obvious, but maybe learning how to plan could be helpful, and not just planning, other skills as well. But that is one in particular where I think it can make a really big difference just to making your life a little bit easier if you plan where you're going with something.

Emma 14:36

Yeah, I think it I often talk to students about process and product. So, like all the skills that you were talking about, Lisa and Sharon, it it they're part of the process, and the process is so important in leading up to that end product. Your product is your assignment, but there's so much more to it than what you hand in. And the more kind of time you spend on the process, the planning, the reading, developing all these skills, the better your end product will be. And all these skills kind of help you break it down and kind of you know approach it step by step rather than kind of just sitting down and throwing everything onto a page and submitting that with no editing or kind of criticality or things like that. So I think the process and that's that kind of learning to learn, isn't it? The you know, you having to develop those skills to in in order to create a product that is kind of you know reflective of your abilities and and things like that.

Katie 15:32

It's like making a bread bowl, isn't it, or a loaf of bread, isn't it? You know, if you're gonna get a great loaf of bread if you've used every process up there, you've given enough time for proving in the oven in a warm area, and that might be two or three times, and then you might well go back and knead it again. If you use live yeast rather than, you know, dried yeast, all of these things, you warm your milk, you're gonna get the best loaf of bread. Now, you don't see that when you're eating that piece of bread. When I go to Tesco's and buy some soda bread, it's it's very nice bread. But I might go somewhere else, and that bread's not very good because of what's not got into it before. It's everything beforehand gives you that finished product that people want. Welcome to the great British car, folks. I know, yeah. I am auditioning for next time.

Lisa 16:19

I mean, Katie, you'd walk onto it. They'd be like, Katie, you might be rubbish at baking, but personality is straight in there. Definitely, I'd love

What The Student Research Reveals

Lisa 16:28

to see you on it. Um, it's funny when we're talking about, or you were in talk about Sharon, when you were talking about planning, Sharon, that when we did our initial um data collection, we got students to do a questionnaire and and sort of uh rated the different embedded sessions. And across both um the level four module and the level five module, the assignment structure, the planning one, was actually scored very highly in both years because it is that seems quite scary, that 3,000-word assignment or that portfolio or that presentation. And actually giving this talking to students about well, let's break that word count down, let's look at what goes into your plan, let's think about what it is you're trying to achieve in your writing. I think they really value that. Interestingly, on on the flip side of that, one of the sessions that was still scored well, but less well than the others, was sort of note-making at level five. They all found that really useful at level four, but then at level five, they were like, oh, actually, that was less useful. And it and it's interesting the difference between between those skills, i.e., planning is something that almost they they felt like they continued to benefit from getting support with because I guess every assignment's different. Whereas reading and note making, yes, it wasn't a skill they'd done until they came to to university, but actually, you know, we spoke to them in in a focus group and they were very much like, actually, once I'd found the technique for note making that worked for me and how I can best do that, I can carry that forward in a way that doesn't the assignment then doesn't matter because I've got the skill to do the note making, and that's a really interesting, I thought that was a really interesting thing that actually there are skills that even very early on in that notepake note making session that that I actually I can now run with this and actually to the point where I didn't need more support with that at level five. And of course, there would be some students who might still find that challenging, they might find that challenging all the way through their study, but I think that's quite an interesting thing to sort of see that actually I'm confident with that skill. Having had that session, develop my own strategy, I can run with that, but there are other skills that, as I say, continue, they felt that was still useful to have a session on. Um, and so again, thinking about students listening to this who maybe don't have an embedded program, an embedded, you know, session, embedded sessions in their modules, that you might come and speak to us or get advice about a skill and think, actually, yeah, I've I've not I've not got it, I've not mastered it, but at least I know where I'm going with it. And then maybe other things that you feel actually I would like to keep coming back and asking that question again and talking things through. And again, it's it's okay to not get everything at the same rate or to the same level as confidence of something else, I guess, is quite an important thing for students to know.

Katie 19:18

I think it's really important as well that it it is part where when those skills study skills are embedded, A, they get to meet you, B, they are they are getting this information. But importantly for C, like you were saying before, Emma, it's those barriers about people come to university and they they think that it's you have to be clever to be there. You need to be cleverer by the time you leave, but you don't have to be clever to get there in the first place. So, you know, and it's a really great space to talk about feed forward. And I know that the students that I teach are on your on your list as good users of feed forward

Feedforward And Wraparound Support

Katie 19:58

and one-to-ones and all of that. And I think with the SRM system as well, it's really helpful for the PATS because when I see my my PAT students, or if even if as a program if a student comes to talk to me, I can look at their SRM and I can see, oh wow, they've really engaged with study skills. So they're not coming to me as a first port of call because they can't they feel they can't do it, they've actually investigated other areas. So it makes the PAT session itself much have a different focus as well. But I have to say, the feed forward, I I personally think is brilliant. So any students that are listening, please have a look, please send your work through. It's absolutely crucial for getting those better marks. And a lot of the students in our research said that they wouldn't have succeeded without using feedforward. So they were very much, they would and because they were started to learn about planning, they could send some of their written work in earlier in the process. So it wasn't a last-minute thing. So they could go back in, they could resend it in and say, is this better and all of that. But I I see a huge difference in in students, and it's not about are they better at nursing? I don't, you know, yes, they are, but what I do see a big difference in is their confidence, their uh ability to write at a certain level, and importantly their communication. And I think that communication is enhanced not only from what they've learnt within the classroom, but it's about that confidence, that having that well-rounded approach to this is how you will learn whilst you're here, and that's what helps them with their confidence. So they they start talking in a different way. They use words they hadn't used before, and instead of just blurting something out, students tend to think about their responses before they answer a question. So, and I think that's all part of the whole university experience. It's not the program, it's not just ASK, it's everything together. That makes a well-rounded student.

Lisa 22:02

Yeah, I have to say it is really nice going back into because that there's some cohorts that I used to go into. I used to do nearly all the sessions, but actually now I see I don't always see them for every session. And actually seeing students at the start of the program and then seeing them at the end of the programme, it reassures me, us, that what we do is valuable and it is helpful. But actually the other the flip side that you know it it's seeing, as Katie just said, that increased confidence and actually the confidence to talk about their confidence with the skills is actually a really big thing.

Katie 22:35

And a lot of those barriers have come down, haven't they? Whereas before it was like they have this wall up in front of them because students don't want to look like that they're a failure or they don't know what you're talking about and they don't like to ask questions. So this huge amount of information comes like a tidal wave over them. And it takes time to sort that out in your head about right, what is really important? What do I need to know? And towards the end, they don't tend to focus so much on the assignment, it's the journey. So it's yes, I've got to pass the assignment, but actually, this is about me learning new skills, me learning different things. It might not help with my assignment in its when I'm writing about it, but it's like that loaf of bread, isn't it? It's part of that proving process. I can then go in and think, yeah, I I remember talking about that. And interestingly, because uh the SNA is our apprentices, I have a lot to do with the employers and practice assessors, and what they say is that they see a huge difference in them in their work space as well. So, you know, they become more professional, they are communicating better with other staff as well as patients, they are much more thorough in what they are doing, they understand the concepts behind, so it becomes less task-oriented. So it's not I'm going to go and do a blood pressure, I'm going to do blood pressure because this is the reason why, and this is what I'm looking out for, and this is what happens because of it.

Confidence In Practice And Progression

Katie 24:02

And that all comes from that confidence that they get from that well-rounded learning experience, in my opinion. And it's about that self-regulation. In in the paper that we're writing, we talk about um self-regulated learning. And what that means is that metacognitively, motivationally, and behaviorally, they engage with learning. So they think about that learning. It's that journey of learning to learn that's so important. And I think that, and I mean a huge, when I say huge amount, I shouldn't use huge amount because that's not quantifiable. Around 75% of our SNAs within five years top up to do their BN in nursing. I've got a couple this time, which um, because they've got the operating department practitioner ODP degree, and they have now accepted the SNA program as as part of their APL program. So I've actually got two going on to the ODP program as well. And it is so great to see what what our students go on to do. But the pre the pre-reg team, so Jenny Templeman, etc., they always say it's great when we get SNAs in because it's it's you know, they've learnt that first part of learning to learn, essentially. They don't use that language, but it is about that learning to learn. So they've become much more self-regulated in their learning. Some of those barriers have been broken down already, and they've got huge motivation to succeed. And I think that's the you know, that's what's such a great delight about the SNA program is is that you know, the a lot of the students haven't even got GCSEs or O levels. They've come in and they've come in via a vocational route. So they need to have an MVQ in care or an associated program at level three. So they're they're coming in through that vocational route and to see them succeed and go to graduation and all of that, it's it just warms your heart. You would have to be the devil incarnate to not think this is just the best job on the planet to see to go on that learning journey with those students because it is a journey, and you do, you know, walk alongside them. Sometimes they're behind you, sometimes they're in front of you, sometimes they ignore you, but you're on a journey altogether. And you know, I sit there and I look at them and I think, oh, I'm so proud. I'm proud of them, I'm proud of what we've done as a university, I'm proud of what I've done as an individual and the program team themselves. You know, we've got a fantastic program team in the SNA. And um, but you know, they're not massive numbers like the pre-reg. So I I know that it is different, but we we know our students, we know you know, we know their cats' names, you know, it's very much a family group. So it's almost like you know, we're going on this journey together, we we move along it and we just get to know each other. And that's I think is really important. It gives them a sense of ownership for their learning, you know, and I learn stuff from them every single time I teach them, you know. So hopefully they learn something from us guys as well. But I definitely learn from them every single time, and they're always so generous with their feedback, and you know, and it's not always positive feedback, and and that's great as well. So, and that's what this um this research was around to say, right, you know, this is what we've been doing. Is it working? And we've now changed the way we deliver study skills based on the feedback from those students. So it's about us learning as well as them because we all want, they want to succeed, we want them to succeed, because that means that our future in in healthcare is much more secure. Because I'm getting to the age now where they're going to be looking after me. So I need that generation of people coming through that I think, yes, they're well trained because they're gonna be looking after me. And you know, to be a part of that is just fantastic. And I've I remember at the NMC validation programme, I said to them that the SNA program is the thing I am most proud of in the whole of my nursing career, without a shadow of a doubt. It's it's changed my life and hopefully it's changed theirs as well.

Lisa 28:08

It's got it's great, it's been great for I think our team to to be involved in something over such a long period of time that has been so successful. I think, you know, our experience we we sort of dip in and out of different programmes of courses, and we've had some embedded things in some places, but it's not in the same consistent way that it has been with the SNA programme, and that's that's really a testament to Katie driving it through in that way to to it to have us back time after time after time.

Emma 28:39

And that connection is nice for us, isn't it? Like to see students regularly and then build up that rapport with them as well. Uh it's nice to do that.

Katie 28:47

And and I think the proof is in the pudding, really, that you know, when you've got some of the best NSS scores in the university for the last five years, we've got to be doing something right. And I think an absolute key part of that is about knowing the students, but also knowing what those fears are, because you know, we've all been there. We all know, oh my god, what room is it in? And you know, I don't know anybody, and I don't know how to do this, and I don't know how to do that. So if we can provide that wrap-around support, and it's important in those first few months to make sure that the student knows what they need to do, when they need to do it, but in a measured way. So it's not all an induction, you know, and then it's forgotten about, and then we just teach. It's about taking those students and and you know, holding them by the hand in the first few weeks, but then you know, they don't need you at the end. They think they say that they do, but they don't because they are self-regulated learners and that will move forward in their career. Um by the very fact that the students come back and do further education and they go on to be a nurse or an ODP, etc., shows that if you plant those seeds early on, it's a lifelong learning ambition that they can that they have, which is what all of us need.

Sharon 30:07

I think it's important as well. We focus primarily on on vocational backgrounds, but every student that we see, every student that comes to your university will have their particular strengths, their particular areas they need to develop. Uh, and it and it's about acknowledging that and not being afraid to say, okay, yeah, I don't know this. I might have straight A grades in in however many A levels or whatever, but I've never done this before. So I need to find out. And with our support and the the academics department support, it's about develop taking those skills, developing them, and becoming more confident and more rounded in an academic environment that is new to you. And that's that's great.

Emma 30:54

So I guess the key takeaway is it's a process, learning to learn. It takes time. You're not expected to know everything straight away. You're not expected to know everything in your first year. You're gonna develop those skills in your second year, your third year, um, in your postgraduate if you do that, and just make sure that you're asking for help and using the resources and kind of going beyond. And you know, it's great that we're embedded in your courses, but also kind of making sure that you're using that wraparound support as well, as you were saying, Katie. So the library, the academic skills team, um, and yeah, all the university teams are here to kind of support you and help you succeed. So thank you for listening uh to the skills part. Thank you, Katie, for joining us. And listen to us again next time. Bye!

How To Access Academic Skills Help

Emma 31:39

Hi there. If you're a University of Chester student, here are the ways you can access support from your academic skills team.

Anthony 31:45

On our Moodle pages, we've got lots of interactive resources for you to use. On our Literacies Moodle page, you'll find help with a range of skills from academic rating to revision. On our Maths and Statistics Moodle pages, you'll find help with different statistical tests, calculations, and formulas.

Emma 32:03

You can also use our feedforward email assistance service. You can send 750 words, which is around three paragraphs, of your work, to ask at chester.ace.uk and we'll respond within three working days with generic and developmental advice on aspects such as paragraph structure, criticality and referencing.

Anthony 32:23

You can also book a one-to-one with the Academic Skills Advisor via our Moodle pages. These appointments typically last 30 minutes and are available online and in person. You're able to see the campuses we're at by looking at our booking scheduler. You can send across an extract of your work for us to look at in preparation for the one-to-one. Or you can book a one-to-one to discuss a generic skill such as referencing or critical thinking.

Emma 32:46

If you and a group of your course mates are struggling with the same academic skill, you can book an Ask Together session by emailing ask at chester.ac.uk with details of your availability, how many people are in your group, what skills you want to cover, and where you'd like the session to take place.

Anthony 33:04

You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook using the handle @acadskillsuoc, where we post practical tips on a range of academic skills, and it's also a great way to see what the team are up to.

Emma 33:16

And of course, you've got the skills pod. If you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or you'd like to be involved with our podcast, please email ask@chester.ac.uk.

Anthony 33:27

Ask.

Emma 33:28

Supporting your success.